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Welcome to our second installment of Let's Talk Legends with our special guest Bill! He's a long time fan of Star Wars (longer than the boys have been alive even) who is back again, this time to talk about the fall of 2 Force Users in the Skywalker Line: Anakin Skywalker and Jacen Solo
00:00:00 --> 00:00:02 I've discovered that my, the cats like, I have
00:00:02 --> 00:00:04 a bunch of code cards from all those Pokemon
00:00:04 --> 00:00:06 packs we opened, and I've just been like throwing
00:00:06 --> 00:00:10 them, uh, and the cats love chasing the fucking
00:00:10 --> 00:00:13 throwing cards. Hey, gotta catch them all. Absolutely.
00:00:13 --> 00:00:18 And aren't we trying? It certainly does sound
00:00:18 --> 00:00:20 like it. Follow up on the Pokemon thing, and
00:00:20 --> 00:00:22 I know you weren't thinking it, but yes, I would
00:00:22 --> 00:00:25 fuck Jigglypuff. Oh, okay, yeah, yeah. That's
00:00:25 --> 00:00:26 an important piece of information to have. Would
00:00:26 --> 00:00:29 you also fuck Muk and Grimer? You know what?
00:00:30 --> 00:00:32 Muck not Grimer. Grimer is too small for me.
00:00:32 --> 00:00:34 I need something that can - Like, I can pick
00:00:34 --> 00:00:37 up a Grimer. A muck can suffocate me. I mean,
00:00:38 --> 00:00:40 cause a muck is very hut -like, you know, in
00:00:40 --> 00:00:43 the shape, you know, the design of it. If Grimer
00:00:43 --> 00:00:46 were the size of a Pichu, I would say yes, because
00:00:46 --> 00:00:49 then it's effectively a pocket pussy. Would you
00:00:49 --> 00:00:52 fuck Garbador? Oh god, no, please don't, no,
00:00:52 --> 00:00:55 this is little garbage. Gar - Garbador? I got
00:00:55 --> 00:00:57 you, I got you, I got you. I actually don't know
00:00:57 --> 00:01:00 that Pokemon. I haven't played in a while. Here
00:01:00 --> 00:01:02 you go, here you go. You ready? Oh boy. Yeah.
00:01:03 --> 00:01:09 Garbador. Smash? Yep. Oh god! Absolutely. Smash
00:01:09 --> 00:01:11 and cook breakfast for the next day to smashing
00:01:11 --> 00:01:14 in. No walk of shame for that Garbador, huh?
00:01:15 --> 00:01:18 No, not one at all. You know when they say like
00:01:18 --> 00:01:21 your fucking standards are in the gutter? This
00:01:21 --> 00:01:24 is what they mean. It has a hole and it probably
00:01:24 --> 00:01:26 breathes, so I mean it's good enough for you,
00:01:26 --> 00:01:53 right? If it breathes, it a thot! Hey, everyone,
00:01:53 --> 00:01:56 and welcome to The Force Unscripted. This is
00:01:56 --> 00:01:59 our lesser done segment called Let's Talk Legends.
00:02:00 --> 00:02:02 We got our homie here, Bill, with us. He is another
00:02:02 --> 00:02:05 resident Legends expert. What's up, Bill? Hey,
00:02:05 --> 00:02:07 everybody. How are we doing today? Fantastic.
00:02:07 --> 00:02:09 Happy to be here. I'm glad to be back. Had fun
00:02:09 --> 00:02:12 the first time, and glad to be back on the show
00:02:12 --> 00:02:14 again. Happy to have you. Yeah, you have a good
00:02:14 --> 00:02:17 mic now. It sounds fantastic. Yeah. Yeah, the
00:02:17 --> 00:02:20 final recording is going to sound really good.
00:02:20 --> 00:02:22 It's going to be great. Yep. So how do we want
00:02:22 --> 00:02:25 to kick this off? All right. So as you guys know,
00:02:25 --> 00:02:28 uh, we let bill pick the topic last time we did
00:02:28 --> 00:02:30 x -wings had a great time. Of course, as, as
00:02:30 --> 00:02:32 per the force unscripted, unscripted policy,
00:02:33 --> 00:02:36 we, uh, we typically get off topic. So today's
00:02:36 --> 00:02:39 topic is we're going to basically kind of be
00:02:39 --> 00:02:41 talking about the similarities and differences
00:02:41 --> 00:02:43 comparing, contrasting the falls of Anakin Skywalker
00:02:43 --> 00:02:46 and Jason Solo. And for those of you who have
00:02:46 --> 00:02:48 tuned in recently and caught our first verses
00:02:48 --> 00:02:52 of this season, it also happened. to be about
00:02:52 --> 00:02:55 Katus versus Anakin. And we told Bill didn't
00:02:55 --> 00:02:57 know about that. So it's funny how it kind of
00:02:57 --> 00:02:59 lines up. I was telling him about that earlier.
00:02:59 --> 00:03:02 And so I just think it's cool. So you got a Versus
00:03:02 --> 00:03:05 and a Let's Talk Legends, the first of the season
00:03:05 --> 00:03:07 matching up. Through the force, of course. There
00:03:07 --> 00:03:11 we go. So the one thing is, and so with the,
00:03:11 --> 00:03:14 I'm going to try very hard not to get into comparing
00:03:14 --> 00:03:19 Jason and Ben Solo because I'm, I don't, I don't
00:03:19 --> 00:03:21 really want to get into that can of worms with
00:03:21 --> 00:03:22 this. Cause we won't be talking about Anakin
00:03:22 --> 00:03:27 for very long. Um, but you know, the thing between
00:03:27 --> 00:03:30 the two of them is, is they, they both have a
00:03:30 --> 00:03:33 very similar reason that they, they turn, you
00:03:33 --> 00:03:35 know, Anakin wanted to protect Padme. because
00:03:35 --> 00:03:39 he saw Padme dying in childbirth, and Jason believed
00:03:39 --> 00:03:42 that if he didn't kill Luke Skywalker, that the
00:03:42 --> 00:03:46 galaxy was gonna turn into... You basically go
00:03:46 --> 00:03:48 to hell, you know, even at, even at, you know,
00:03:48 --> 00:03:50 they just had the bung invasion. They just had,
00:03:50 --> 00:03:52 you know, a couple other, you know, minor things,
00:03:52 --> 00:03:55 you know, the empire tried to rise again and
00:03:55 --> 00:03:57 then kill X. Yeah. Kill X. And then, you know,
00:03:57 --> 00:03:59 all into that. So, you know, it's one of those,
00:04:00 --> 00:04:02 it's like, is the cow, how much more chaos are
00:04:02 --> 00:04:04 you going to get in the galaxy at this point?
00:04:04 --> 00:04:07 If you don't try to do the absolute stupid as
00:04:07 --> 00:04:09 possible thing, you could try to do, because
00:04:09 --> 00:04:11 at the end of Anakin's art, and I'll get back
00:04:11 --> 00:04:12 to Anakin here in a second at the end of Anakin's
00:04:12 --> 00:04:16 art. you still had that one bit of redemption
00:04:16 --> 00:04:20 for Anakin's character redeeming himself and
00:04:20 --> 00:04:24 killing Palpatine for the first time. So you
00:04:24 --> 00:04:27 have that redemption for for Anakin and you know
00:04:27 --> 00:04:31 Anakin did a lot of war crimes in in both the
00:04:31 --> 00:04:34 Republic and you know later with with the rise
00:04:34 --> 00:04:37 of the Empire and the Empire itself but you still
00:04:37 --> 00:04:39 had that little glimmer there's some way that
00:04:39 --> 00:04:42 he could he could be redeemed. Luke had that
00:04:42 --> 00:04:44 hope that he could be redeemed. Throughout the
00:04:44 --> 00:04:47 whole fall of Cadus, fall of Jason and becoming
00:04:47 --> 00:04:52 Cadus, he's trained by the girl that Luke shot
00:04:52 --> 00:04:54 down one time because the Force told him that
00:04:54 --> 00:04:58 she was an Imperial in a comic. And yeah, I read
00:04:58 --> 00:05:01 that comic when I was probably eight or nine
00:05:01 --> 00:05:04 years old. And it's just like, okay, that's just
00:05:04 --> 00:05:06 a really cool story. And of course she was an
00:05:06 --> 00:05:11 Imperial spy, but... So Luke was eventually,
00:05:11 --> 00:05:14 you know, exonerated of it. But apparently, you
00:05:14 --> 00:05:17 know, her TIE fighter being destroyed didn't
00:05:17 --> 00:05:19 actually kill her. And she comes back as a Sith
00:05:19 --> 00:05:22 Lord with and she wants revenge on Skywalker
00:05:22 --> 00:05:24 also, which that's that's another interesting
00:05:24 --> 00:05:26 thing about the legends of how many women in
00:05:26 --> 00:05:29 Luke's life come back that want to kill him.
00:05:29 --> 00:05:31 And Abeloth was a fucking nightmare for him.
00:05:31 --> 00:05:35 All his exes came back with a vengeance. Yeah.
00:05:35 --> 00:05:39 So he's kind of shaky on, you know, the the ex
00:05:39 --> 00:05:43 -girlfriend thing. And then so Jason goes and
00:05:43 --> 00:05:46 does. outside of actually, you know, killing
00:05:46 --> 00:05:48 Luke because, you know, Katus wanted to kill
00:05:48 --> 00:05:51 Han and Leia as his, you know, I'm turning, I'm
00:05:51 --> 00:05:52 committing and turning to the dark side thing.
00:05:52 --> 00:05:54 And she says, okay, do you still really love
00:05:54 --> 00:05:57 them though? And then he's like, well, um, she's
00:05:57 --> 00:05:59 like, yeah, that's what I thought. Go pick somebody
00:05:59 --> 00:06:01 else. And then, you know, he kills Mara. And
00:06:01 --> 00:06:04 so, you know, your, your goal is your, if you're,
00:06:04 --> 00:06:06 you're trying not to kill Luke Skywalker, but
00:06:06 --> 00:06:08 you're going to kill his wife. You try to turn
00:06:08 --> 00:06:11 his son to the dark side. And then when you can't,
00:06:11 --> 00:06:13 you torture the shit out of him. Can I say shit?
00:06:13 --> 00:06:15 Yes, you can say whatever the fuck you want man.
00:06:17 --> 00:06:20 But you know, you have the whole, he tries to
00:06:20 --> 00:06:23 take over the, the new Republic again. So throughout
00:06:23 --> 00:06:26 his arc, there's no way you can see him redeeming
00:06:26 --> 00:06:30 himself because everything he's doing is basically
00:06:30 --> 00:06:33 there's, there's no way he can, he can step back
00:06:33 --> 00:06:35 from what he's, what he's done. You know, Anakin
00:06:35 --> 00:06:38 did a lot of, he did a lot of bad stuff, but
00:06:38 --> 00:06:41 you know, eventually he, he stepped back and,
00:06:41 --> 00:06:44 and, you know, he, he killed a, he killed Palpatine.
00:06:44 --> 00:06:46 You don't definitely didn't murder his aunt.
00:06:46 --> 00:06:48 Yeah. did not murder his aunt either. I love
00:06:48 --> 00:06:51 the part about Jason's story where he basically
00:06:51 --> 00:06:54 takes a loophole, has a droid exploit the loophole,
00:06:54 --> 00:06:56 and then creates a triumvirate in the Galactic
00:06:56 --> 00:06:58 Senate and becomes basically the head of it.
00:06:58 --> 00:07:01 I thought that was that was some real evil man.
00:07:01 --> 00:07:04 He was like he was like brutal like Anakin was,
00:07:05 --> 00:07:07 but he had like a, I wouldn't say he's a smartest
00:07:07 --> 00:07:10 Palpatine, but he had those political machinations
00:07:10 --> 00:07:12 like Palpatine had. And I thought that was cool.
00:07:12 --> 00:07:15 Well, I think that that also throws back to his
00:07:15 --> 00:07:18 earlier story where he was kind of like the warrior
00:07:18 --> 00:07:20 philosopher kind of thing. So, you know, he,
00:07:20 --> 00:07:24 he had that ability to step back and see, you
00:07:24 --> 00:07:26 know, bigger picture. He could play, he could
00:07:26 --> 00:07:28 play chess a little bit further ahead than most
00:07:28 --> 00:07:30 people could. And I think that's, that's an interesting
00:07:30 --> 00:07:32 way to throw back to. know what he was trying
00:07:32 --> 00:07:35 to learn when he was doing the should we kill
00:07:35 --> 00:07:38 you know should we you know that that whole that
00:07:38 --> 00:07:41 whole thing that was what that was pre was that
00:07:41 --> 00:07:44 during Vong or is it pre Vong where he was where
00:07:44 --> 00:07:46 he where he was doing the the the philosopher
00:07:46 --> 00:07:49 thing that was post Vong okay yeah so I mean
00:07:49 --> 00:07:52 I think that kind of throws back to that as well
00:07:52 --> 00:07:54 because it shows that he thinks things through
00:07:54 --> 00:07:58 he doesn't just act on impulse Anakin did not
00:07:58 --> 00:08:03 think things through hardly no ever And as we
00:08:03 --> 00:08:06 stated earlier, twice the pride, double the fall.
00:08:07 --> 00:08:10 So even before Anakin fell, you know, Anakin
00:08:10 --> 00:08:13 was whether he was a Jedi or Sith, he was an
00:08:13 --> 00:08:17 embodiment of rage. He just was. And the only
00:08:17 --> 00:08:19 thing that could help keep him under control
00:08:19 --> 00:08:22 was Padme. And we know how that story ended.
00:08:22 --> 00:08:25 It didn't exactly work out. I have a question
00:08:25 --> 00:08:29 for you, Bill. So you mentioned that while Anakin
00:08:29 --> 00:08:32 was redeemable and was redeemed and Cadus is
00:08:32 --> 00:08:35 more irredeemable. Even considering that, do
00:08:35 --> 00:08:38 you think that either of them were justified
00:08:38 --> 00:08:42 in what they did? I think to quote a famous philosopher
00:08:42 --> 00:08:45 from a certain point of view, I think Anakin's,
00:08:45 --> 00:08:48 I don't know about his fall being justified,
00:08:48 --> 00:08:50 but his is more, it's easier to see happening.
00:08:50 --> 00:08:52 I mean, you see the same thing with Jason that
00:08:52 --> 00:08:55 he was worried about his wife and his child being
00:08:55 --> 00:09:00 saved as well. But Jason was focused on one person.
00:09:00 --> 00:09:05 Anakin was out to destroy all of the Jedi. And
00:09:05 --> 00:09:07 I think Jason went too far with it because I
00:09:07 --> 00:09:10 think if he hadn't have done the whole, I'm going
00:09:10 --> 00:09:13 to take over the government and continue to build
00:09:13 --> 00:09:18 up the Sith and his army and all of what he was
00:09:18 --> 00:09:22 building up to do that with. If he hadn't have
00:09:22 --> 00:09:23 done that, I think he would have had a better
00:09:23 --> 00:09:28 chance to probably... was to, was to kill Skywalker,
00:09:28 --> 00:09:32 I think not turning the galaxy against him and
00:09:32 --> 00:09:34 making Skywalker point a spearhead straight at
00:09:34 --> 00:09:38 his chest would be, um, I don't know. I can,
00:09:38 --> 00:09:40 I can, I can see. Yeah. I, but yeah, I can, I
00:09:40 --> 00:09:42 can see, I can see up and downs for both sides.
00:09:42 --> 00:09:46 I think Anakin's is probably more relatable for,
00:09:46 --> 00:09:48 for most people. I think that's, that may be
00:09:48 --> 00:09:52 the thing with, with Jason is he becomes basically
00:09:52 --> 00:09:58 a, a young Palpatine and. His mentor wasn't as
00:09:58 --> 00:10:00 Helpful to him is what you know Palpatine was
00:10:00 --> 00:10:02 to training Vader, but you know having a suit
00:10:02 --> 00:10:04 that tortures you every day Yeah, I was gonna
00:10:04 --> 00:10:07 say helpful is kind of subjective, but I mean
00:10:07 --> 00:10:12 it did you know he did become more powerful So
00:10:12 --> 00:10:16 I think that starting with Anakin I think that
00:10:16 --> 00:10:20 Anakin's everything is unjustified like in my
00:10:20 --> 00:10:22 personal opinion just because like the betrayal
00:10:22 --> 00:10:24 for Obi -Wan the betrayal to the Jedi Order he
00:10:24 --> 00:10:28 ends up being one of the reasons Padme dies anyway
00:10:28 --> 00:10:32 he kills younglings he goes on grand galactic
00:10:32 --> 00:10:36 atrocities for 20 years and in the end all he
00:10:36 --> 00:10:38 does is did what he was originally supposed to
00:10:38 --> 00:10:40 do which was bring balance to the forest now
00:10:40 --> 00:10:42 depending on your interpretation like killing
00:10:42 --> 00:10:44 the jedi and then killing the big bad that was
00:10:44 --> 00:10:46 responsible for the fall of jedi that could be
00:10:46 --> 00:10:48 seen as as as taking balance like bringing balance
00:10:48 --> 00:10:51 to the forest but like at the end of the day
00:10:51 --> 00:10:54 he still did what he was you know brought into
00:10:54 --> 00:10:56 the world to do, which was bring balance of the
00:10:56 --> 00:10:59 force is the chosen one. Yeah, I think that like
00:10:59 --> 00:11:02 that shouldn't get a pat on the back. Like I'm
00:11:02 --> 00:11:04 sure you did. You did great wrong. Like, sure,
00:11:04 --> 00:11:05 you end up doing what you're supposed to do,
00:11:05 --> 00:11:08 but you did great wrong when you compare it to
00:11:08 --> 00:11:11 Jason. I think that Jason's goal was definitely
00:11:11 --> 00:11:16 more of the redeemable side than Anakin's was
00:11:16 --> 00:11:19 because at the end of the day, his goal was to
00:11:19 --> 00:11:24 make sure that. His child was like the child
00:11:24 --> 00:11:26 that was the queen of the Jedi and not the queen
00:11:26 --> 00:11:29 of the Sith. And this goes back to the argument
00:11:29 --> 00:11:31 that Mia Winchie had when we were talking about
00:11:31 --> 00:11:35 like, you know, who was the real chosen one?
00:11:35 --> 00:11:36 And I was like, it's always been Anakin. And
00:11:36 --> 00:11:38 he brought up a point, well, what if it was Alana?
00:11:39 --> 00:11:40 And because she was the queen of the Jedi, you
00:11:40 --> 00:11:44 know, the prophecy could have, you know, been
00:11:44 --> 00:11:46 about someone else in the line. And like, we
00:11:46 --> 00:11:48 ended up coming back and agreeing that the chosen
00:11:48 --> 00:11:50 one is Anakin. But like, in J - Jason's eyes,
00:11:51 --> 00:11:52 the chosen one might have been Alana and Alana
00:11:52 --> 00:11:55 being queen of the Jedi seems like an overall
00:11:55 --> 00:11:56 good thing especially when you compare it to
00:11:56 --> 00:11:58 the other reality which was her being queen of
00:11:58 --> 00:12:01 the Sith and that's something that he as a Sith
00:12:01 --> 00:12:04 didn't want to see. So I think that that is definitely
00:12:04 --> 00:12:08 more justifiable than the murder and pillage
00:12:08 --> 00:12:12 of the galaxy at large to bring balance to the
00:12:12 --> 00:12:16 force. That's just my opinion on it. With the
00:12:16 --> 00:12:18 bringing balance to the force thing, I always
00:12:18 --> 00:12:22 put this towards, you know, obviously we know
00:12:22 --> 00:12:25 other Jedi survived Order 66 because, you know,
00:12:25 --> 00:12:27 you got to have more Jedi to tell stories with.
00:12:27 --> 00:12:31 But at the point of In Revenge of the Sith, when
00:12:31 --> 00:12:35 Anakin, basically, they wiped out the Jedi, you
00:12:35 --> 00:12:37 basically, he brought balanced to the force because
00:12:37 --> 00:12:40 there were two Jedi and two Sith. You had Yoda
00:12:40 --> 00:12:43 and Obi -Wan is basically the only Jedi left
00:12:43 --> 00:12:47 and you had Palpatine and now Vader. So he did
00:12:47 --> 00:12:49 do exactly what the prophecy said he was going
00:12:49 --> 00:12:53 to do. That's not a take we actually have looked
00:12:53 --> 00:12:57 at before. Because they've made so many more
00:12:57 --> 00:13:02 Jedi survive since the original stuff. But yeah,
00:13:02 --> 00:13:04 as in the original, yeah, it makes sense. There
00:13:04 --> 00:13:07 are two Jedi left. I never thought about it like
00:13:07 --> 00:13:12 that, fuck. That's a good point. As far as the
00:13:12 --> 00:13:14 scope of what Vader and Palpatine knew after
00:13:14 --> 00:13:17 Order 66, the only two that survived were Obi
00:13:17 --> 00:13:21 -Wan and Yoda. They knew others escaped because
00:13:21 --> 00:13:23 you have the Inquisitors and all the search for
00:13:23 --> 00:13:25 the Jedi during the Empire. My only point of
00:13:25 --> 00:13:27 contention with the point you're making though
00:13:27 --> 00:13:31 is that force users are not the only influence
00:13:31 --> 00:13:34 on the balance of the force. Yes, I agree. And
00:13:34 --> 00:13:36 a different topic, but, you know, the four switches
00:13:36 --> 00:13:39 of Dathomir, that was one thing that I found
00:13:39 --> 00:13:41 very interesting is because they came up EU and
00:13:41 --> 00:13:44 then they flushed them out more in Clone Wars.
00:13:44 --> 00:13:48 But the four switches are an interesting way
00:13:48 --> 00:13:50 to bring in, you know, other types of force.
00:13:50 --> 00:13:53 You can't bring up four switches that makes the
00:13:53 --> 00:13:57 fucking fandom go crazy. Oh, sorry. Sorry. They're
00:13:57 --> 00:13:59 still mad about the acolyte. Okay, well. No,
00:13:59 --> 00:14:06 it's okay, bring it up. I'm mad. Please, make
00:14:06 --> 00:14:33 him mad. And like, Luke had a stint when he was
00:14:33 --> 00:14:35 on his little force pilgrimage with the Fallen
00:14:35 --> 00:14:37 Asi. Jason did the same thing following in his
00:14:37 --> 00:14:40 footsteps. And I definitely think that meeting
00:14:40 --> 00:14:44 those different cultures in the force is how
00:14:44 --> 00:14:47 Jason ends up coming to the conclusions that
00:14:47 --> 00:14:50 he does. Lumia also kind of, you know, poisoned
00:14:50 --> 00:14:53 the visions that Jason was having too, though.
00:14:53 --> 00:14:55 So it wasn't like, yeah. And that's one thing
00:14:55 --> 00:14:59 with, with, with both Jason and Anakin is, is
00:14:59 --> 00:15:02 that to assert extent, both of them were manipulated
00:15:02 --> 00:15:05 into it. I mean, yes, it was a choice that they
00:15:05 --> 00:15:09 made, but they were manipulated into the choices
00:15:09 --> 00:15:11 that, you know, they didn't really have a whole
00:15:11 --> 00:15:14 choice based on the manipulation that they were
00:15:14 --> 00:15:18 subjected to and fell for. And Anakin was, you
00:15:18 --> 00:15:21 know, he had problems with the Jedi, particularly
00:15:21 --> 00:15:24 after Ahsoka. Do we like Ahsoka still or do we
00:15:24 --> 00:15:27 not like Ahsoka? Oh, I love Ahsoka. We love Ahsoka,
00:15:27 --> 00:15:29 yeah. Good, because I've always liked Ahsoka.
00:15:29 --> 00:15:33 because she just snapped back at Anakin every
00:15:33 --> 00:15:36 time that she could. And, you know, the thing
00:15:36 --> 00:15:38 where she gets accused of the bombing at the
00:15:38 --> 00:15:40 Jedi Temple, and then, you know, the Jedi are
00:15:40 --> 00:15:43 ready just to hang her at the Jedi, regardless,
00:15:43 --> 00:15:45 and then they find out, oh, yeah, you actually
00:15:45 --> 00:15:47 are innocent. They're like, hey, we want you
00:15:47 --> 00:15:49 to come back. She's like, nah, I'm out, and,
00:15:49 --> 00:15:51 you know, Anakin has to watch her walk away.
00:15:51 --> 00:15:52 He definitely had some disillusionment with the
00:15:52 --> 00:15:56 Jedi, but he was never close to doing what he
00:15:56 --> 00:15:59 did without Palpatine finally... giving him the
00:15:59 --> 00:16:02 push of, like, I can say Padme from death after,
00:16:02 --> 00:16:04 you know, he tells him that he had a force vision.
00:16:04 --> 00:16:09 Anakin was groomed by that man and manipulated
00:16:09 --> 00:16:12 by a person. Jason, I feel like, was manipulated
00:16:12 --> 00:16:15 by circumstance. Jason was manipulated by the
00:16:15 --> 00:16:17 Fountain of Knowledge. Like, I know, I know,
00:16:17 --> 00:16:19 like, yeah, the Fountain of Knowledge and Lumia
00:16:19 --> 00:16:22 for sure. But, like, after the torture that he
00:16:22 --> 00:16:24 goes through and being severed from the force
00:16:24 --> 00:16:27 by Vergare and then going on, like, a five year
00:16:27 --> 00:16:30 stint to search for answers he was in such a
00:16:30 --> 00:16:33 state to be molded by whoever could push him
00:16:33 --> 00:16:35 with the strongest hand, that when Lumia comes
00:16:35 --> 00:16:38 into play, like it was just easy for her. Like
00:16:38 --> 00:16:41 Palpatine spent years getting the influence on
00:16:41 --> 00:16:43 Anakin that he had, but like Jason walked right
00:16:43 --> 00:16:47 into Lumia and Lumia was just, it was easy for
00:16:47 --> 00:16:50 her. I feel like there's a lot of difference
00:16:50 --> 00:16:53 in what goes into their manipulation. Like Anakin
00:16:53 --> 00:16:56 was in a prime spot because he was snatched from
00:16:56 --> 00:16:59 his mama. He was forced into a bunch of rules
00:16:59 --> 00:17:01 that were counter to how he wanted to live his
00:17:01 --> 00:17:05 life. And then a guy comes in after getting close
00:17:05 --> 00:17:08 to him over years and then saying, hey, I have
00:17:08 --> 00:17:09 the answer to all the problems that you're looking
00:17:09 --> 00:17:12 for. The Jedi fucking suck, come with me. That's
00:17:12 --> 00:17:15 different from, oh shit, extra galactic force
00:17:15 --> 00:17:19 has come and rampaged my fucking galaxy. Oh shit,
00:17:19 --> 00:17:21 I got kidnapped and now I'm fucking being tortured
00:17:21 --> 00:17:24 without the force. Oh God, I have all these fucking
00:17:24 --> 00:17:27 questions, come back. Oh, you have the answers?
00:17:27 --> 00:17:29 This is what, you know, like the person who tortured.
00:17:29 --> 00:17:31 me. Like she basically, what's the, what's the
00:17:31 --> 00:17:33 syndrome call? Is it Stockholm syndrome? Yeah.
00:17:33 --> 00:17:35 Stockholm syndrome. Yeah. Yeah. So he's just
00:17:35 --> 00:17:37 like, ah, yeah, this is clearly what was supposed
00:17:37 --> 00:17:40 to happen. It's just, I like, I like the two
00:17:40 --> 00:17:42 stories. I like, I like putting them side by
00:17:42 --> 00:17:44 side and seeing the differences and similarities.
00:17:44 --> 00:17:46 I, I, I'm so glad you picked this topic. Oh yeah,
00:17:46 --> 00:17:49 I do too. I liked the story. I, the one thing
00:17:49 --> 00:17:51 that I will give them that they did not do with
00:17:51 --> 00:17:55 the story was the person to kill Katus was not
00:17:55 --> 00:17:57 Luke. And Jaina was the one that had to do it
00:17:57 --> 00:18:00 because Skywalker was too much you know Jason
00:18:00 --> 00:18:03 was too focused on on Skywalker for Skywalker
00:18:03 --> 00:18:05 to be able to do it where Jaina could get close
00:18:05 --> 00:18:08 to him to be able to to do it but but Luke also
00:18:08 --> 00:18:10 I mean he flat -out said like if I go after Jason
00:18:10 --> 00:18:13 I'm going to fall to the dark side because yeah
00:18:13 --> 00:18:16 I have so much you know but even then Luke did
00:18:16 --> 00:18:19 and and this is one I will I will draw back to
00:18:19 --> 00:18:24 the last Jedi for this with Luke Luke went just
00:18:24 --> 00:18:27 pure, I'm going to fuck with your head every
00:18:27 --> 00:18:31 chance I get after he found out that he was the
00:18:31 --> 00:18:34 one that murdered Mara. And Luke didn't have
00:18:34 --> 00:18:36 to go after him with a lightsaber because Luke
00:18:36 --> 00:18:38 was going after him probably harder than Jaina
00:18:38 --> 00:18:40 did with when they were fighting. The big picture
00:18:40 --> 00:18:42 of it is, you know, the power that Luke has to,
00:18:42 --> 00:18:44 you know, project himself through the force.
00:18:44 --> 00:18:46 He did the same thing with Kylo back in Last
00:18:46 --> 00:18:49 Jedi when Kylo tells all his walkers to fire
00:18:49 --> 00:18:51 on him and Luke just kind of like dust the dirt
00:18:51 --> 00:18:54 off of his shoulders. But he did that kind of
00:18:54 --> 00:18:57 stuff to Jason pretty much anytime he could.
00:18:57 --> 00:18:59 And you know, Luke, yes, Luke absolutely was
00:18:59 --> 00:19:00 going to fall if he did. Cause you know, he killed
00:19:00 --> 00:19:03 his wife, he tortured his son. He tried to turn
00:19:03 --> 00:19:05 his son first and he tortured his son. Like,
00:19:05 --> 00:19:07 yeah, he is pretty much like, sorry, nephew,
00:19:07 --> 00:19:09 you're going to go. I think whenever Luke killed
00:19:09 --> 00:19:12 Lumia, the, the, for the last time that that
00:19:12 --> 00:19:14 was where Luke realized that he was going to
00:19:14 --> 00:19:16 lose control. If he fought Jason, because he
00:19:16 --> 00:19:19 basically is like, there wasn't even a contest
00:19:19 --> 00:19:21 that Lumia was dead. And it wasn't even, I mean,
00:19:21 --> 00:19:52 she, she. it's like And that was basically the
00:19:52 --> 00:19:54 kind of fight that when you visualize that fight
00:19:54 --> 00:19:55 with him and Lumia, that's when he's like, I'm
00:19:55 --> 00:19:58 not playing with you anymore. And I think it
00:19:58 --> 00:20:00 was going to be like that, but worse with Jason
00:20:00 --> 00:20:03 and Luke had already had problems with being
00:20:03 --> 00:20:05 tempted by the dark side. So I'm not going to
00:20:05 --> 00:20:07 say Luke was like the Hulk there where he, he's
00:20:07 --> 00:20:10 always angry and he knew how to control it. But
00:20:10 --> 00:20:12 Luke had plenty of bouts with the dark side to
00:20:12 --> 00:20:14 know that, okay, if I do this, bad shit's going
00:20:14 --> 00:20:15 to happen. That was one thing that I liked. If
00:20:15 --> 00:20:18 it ended up that Luke killed, if he killed Katus
00:20:18 --> 00:20:20 that you would lose some of the of the ending
00:20:20 --> 00:20:23 of the book that you get with Jane of having
00:20:23 --> 00:20:26 to be the one to kill him. The one the one thing
00:20:26 --> 00:20:30 that I loved about it being Jaina was if you
00:20:30 --> 00:20:34 go back I believe it's the end of the young Jedi
00:20:34 --> 00:20:36 Knights or either Yeah, it's either the end of
00:20:36 --> 00:20:38 the young Jedi Knights or the start of the new
00:20:38 --> 00:20:39 Jedi Order No, it is the end of the young Jedi
00:20:39 --> 00:20:43 Knights when Jaina and all of them Lowy Jason
00:20:43 --> 00:20:48 Tennoca they all get knighted Luke calls her
00:20:48 --> 00:20:50 the sword of the Jedi and it's such an awkward
00:20:50 --> 00:20:53 moment because Jaina's like why did he say that
00:20:53 --> 00:20:57 and then and for her to take up that mantle and
00:20:57 --> 00:21:02 be the one to put an end. to her brother and
00:21:02 --> 00:21:05 then being the one at the end of fate of the
00:21:05 --> 00:21:09 Jedi to finally become a master as the sword
00:21:09 --> 00:21:12 of the Jedi. I feel like that little bit that
00:21:12 --> 00:21:15 we get when she's knighted comes to full circle
00:21:15 --> 00:21:18 multiple times in the legends timeline. That's
00:21:18 --> 00:21:20 why I like the fact that she was the one to kill
00:21:20 --> 00:21:23 Jason. Yeah, because when she kills Jason, that's
00:21:23 --> 00:21:25 like the first time she truly is like the sword
00:21:25 --> 00:21:28 of the Jedi. When has she ever had to take down
00:21:28 --> 00:21:29 a Sith? Like I understand she fought in the use
00:21:29 --> 00:21:32 of Vong War but you know Jedi and Sith are mortal
00:21:32 --> 00:21:35 enemies like she is now officially the sword
00:21:35 --> 00:21:37 and then it comes to full circle when she has
00:21:37 --> 00:21:39 to fight you know this great dark side entity
00:21:39 --> 00:21:43 known as Abaloth so it's just it's great. I love
00:21:43 --> 00:21:45 the story of this, the solo, all the solo siblings,
00:21:45 --> 00:21:48 poor Anakin. Throwback to my boy soon to fell
00:21:48 --> 00:21:50 from from my last show. His boy ends up with
00:21:50 --> 00:21:53 Jaina to props to him. I thought his name, his
00:21:53 --> 00:21:55 name. I hate his name. I hate his fucking Jagged
00:21:55 --> 00:21:58 Jagged fell. Yes. I think probably it's supposed
00:21:58 --> 00:22:00 to be like a German thing where it's like Jagged.
00:22:01 --> 00:22:03 And I do, you know, for as much as I hate his
00:22:03 --> 00:22:05 name, I do love his character, like with the
00:22:05 --> 00:22:08 whole chis and empire background and all that
00:22:08 --> 00:22:11 shit. Like they had some really good fucking
00:22:11 --> 00:22:13 stories and. character development legends that
00:22:13 --> 00:22:16 just has not been there for me in Disney. Well
00:22:16 --> 00:22:19 and well the thing is is that they a lot of those
00:22:19 --> 00:22:21 characters they played they played long story
00:22:21 --> 00:22:23 arcs for a lot of those characters. You know,
00:22:23 --> 00:22:27 you had two of the the guys from Ray Squadron
00:22:27 --> 00:22:30 were still active in New Republic Intelligence
00:22:30 --> 00:22:34 through Vong and through New Jedi Order. So,
00:22:34 --> 00:22:36 I mean, you have you have a lot of characters
00:22:36 --> 00:22:40 who have long stories with them. That's one of
00:22:40 --> 00:22:42 those ones I thought was really cool that they
00:22:42 --> 00:22:45 that they kept around as long as they did. And
00:22:45 --> 00:22:47 as much as I hate the character of Corrin Horn
00:22:47 --> 00:22:51 with an absolute fucking passion. I don't talk
00:22:51 --> 00:22:55 about my hero. I thought. Like we do not have
00:22:55 --> 00:22:58 corn horn in this house, sir Look that that is
00:22:58 --> 00:23:01 if if and and I think I it I think I said this
00:23:01 --> 00:23:03 before if there's any beef that I have with it
00:23:03 --> 00:23:06 with the x -wing books it is the fact that that
00:23:06 --> 00:23:11 poll inflicted corn horn and then later I Jedi
00:23:11 --> 00:23:16 on the EU, but you know, I get the x -wing stuff
00:23:16 --> 00:23:19 but post that we do not we do not Sham corn horn.
00:23:19 --> 00:23:22 I'm sorry. The hero of I Thor has to go through
00:23:22 --> 00:23:25 his shit with Gisela and Valen. Uh -uh. We don't
00:23:25 --> 00:23:29 that that no, I'm sorry, sir I can that that
00:23:29 --> 00:23:33 he may not be Star Wars universe, but that that's
00:23:33 --> 00:23:35 that's that's him. That's Okay, if you can't
00:23:35 --> 00:23:39 tell he has a corn boner. He brings up I can
00:23:39 --> 00:23:43 tell and I that's another you know, did y 'all
00:23:43 --> 00:23:46 ever play the x -wing miniatures game? The like
00:23:46 --> 00:23:49 the the tabletop Yeah, the tabletop. I played
00:23:49 --> 00:23:53 it like once on the tabletop simulator, but never
00:23:53 --> 00:23:55 actually on the table. Well, yeah. Well, in in
00:23:55 --> 00:23:58 in that game, Korn was in an E wing. He was just
00:23:58 --> 00:24:00 so absolutely broken of a pilot. You know how
00:24:00 --> 00:24:04 much Korn hates smugglers? The main the main
00:24:04 --> 00:24:07 list that people play with with Korn Horn was
00:24:07 --> 00:24:09 Dash Rendar. Why Dash? Yeah, just because he
00:24:09 --> 00:24:12 was he was a good tank for him. The YT -1200
00:24:12 --> 00:24:14 was it was a good tank vessel. It was a good
00:24:14 --> 00:24:16 tank ship for it. There was game effects he could
00:24:16 --> 00:24:18 do that like make Korn even more stupid, but
00:24:18 --> 00:24:20 no, I'll tell you the point that I fell off with
00:24:20 --> 00:24:22 corn horn. The first time I read X -wing, I thought
00:24:22 --> 00:24:25 he was obligatory force sensitive pilot. So,
00:24:25 --> 00:24:27 you know, he's cool. Whenever, whenever we got
00:24:27 --> 00:24:31 to I Jedi and the, the scene where he shows up
00:24:31 --> 00:24:35 to the Jedi praxium and he basically starts telling
00:24:35 --> 00:24:38 Luke everything he's doing wrong. And Luke basically
00:24:38 --> 00:24:40 goes, yeah, you're right. I'm fucking everything
00:24:40 --> 00:24:42 up. I'm going to like, no, that's not going to
00:24:42 --> 00:24:45 happen. I'm no, you're giving too much agency
00:24:45 --> 00:24:49 to a character. The main character? Yeah, over
00:24:49 --> 00:24:53 main character. But Luke needed that kind of
00:24:53 --> 00:24:57 stuff. Like that early on? Come on. But Corrin
00:24:57 --> 00:25:01 has no clue. what he's talking about as far as
00:25:01 --> 00:25:03 like how to run the Jedi Praxian. That whole
00:25:03 --> 00:25:06 part of it. And then the other part of it where
00:25:06 --> 00:25:08 he like goes into, you know, like bounty hunting
00:25:08 --> 00:25:12 for a whole year while his wife is still in captivity
00:25:12 --> 00:25:14 and nothing happens to her. And the first person
00:25:14 --> 00:25:17 narrative didn't really work for her. Blame Stackpole,
00:25:18 --> 00:25:23 not Cornhorn. I have actually talked to Michael
00:25:23 --> 00:25:27 Stackpole on blue sky. And yeah, he wrote a lot
00:25:27 --> 00:25:30 of the early fiction for for the battle tech
00:25:30 --> 00:25:34 universe. And so there's so much of that shit
00:25:34 --> 00:25:36 that he wrote that is actually now like rules
00:25:36 --> 00:25:40 in the game because of the fact how nuclear engines
00:25:40 --> 00:25:43 explode in ways that can't actually happen in
00:25:43 --> 00:25:45 reality in BattleTech all the time. It's called
00:25:45 --> 00:25:48 the Stackpult because that's how the thing explodes.
00:25:48 --> 00:25:51 I've actually talked to him on Blue Sky before.
00:25:52 --> 00:25:55 So I have no problem with Michael Stackpult.
00:25:55 --> 00:25:58 As far as that character goes, yes. The overall
00:25:58 --> 00:26:02 arc of iJedi... just did not work for me. If
00:26:02 --> 00:26:03 I, if I offend you with the two words that I'm
00:26:03 --> 00:26:06 about to say, then I profusely apologize for
00:26:06 --> 00:26:09 calling him a Mary Sue because that is exactly
00:26:09 --> 00:26:11 what he is. And that is exactly what Stackpole
00:26:11 --> 00:26:14 does in every series he ever writes is there's
00:26:14 --> 00:26:17 a Mary Sue in there that he is inserting himself
00:26:17 --> 00:26:20 into it and he admits it. Not the corn was a
00:26:20 --> 00:26:22 Mary Sue, but he, but he does, he does do that.
00:26:23 --> 00:26:25 Mary Sue's are fine. It's just, he was too over
00:26:25 --> 00:26:27 the top of the Mary Sue. He's telling Luke what's
00:26:27 --> 00:26:29 what with the Jedi. He's telling how he like,
00:26:29 --> 00:26:31 I don't like being trained this way. I should
00:26:31 --> 00:26:33 be trained this way. Well, you're being trained
00:26:33 --> 00:26:35 as a Jedi. You're not being homeschooled by that
00:26:35 --> 00:26:37 point. Luke had recovered a good bit of the Jedi,
00:26:37 --> 00:26:39 you know, teaching and stuff. And he was trying
00:26:39 --> 00:26:41 to learn from that. And yeah, no, Luke was not
00:26:41 --> 00:26:44 perfect as the teacher running the temple, you
00:26:44 --> 00:26:46 know, at, at the end, he, cause at first he was
00:26:46 --> 00:26:48 trying, he was trying to teach people how you
00:26:48 --> 00:26:50 a force, he wasn't trying to teach them how to
00:26:50 --> 00:26:52 be Jedi Knight. Like you brought up at the end
00:26:52 --> 00:26:55 of Young Jedi Knights, he had transitioned into
00:26:55 --> 00:26:57 that. He realized he wasn't training Force users.
00:26:57 --> 00:27:00 He was training people. He was teaching people.
00:27:00 --> 00:27:02 He wasn't necessarily teaching the Force. He
00:27:02 --> 00:27:04 was teaching them how to be Jedi Knight. And
00:27:04 --> 00:27:06 being a Jedi Knight is not being, I know how
00:27:06 --> 00:27:09 to use the Force. You know how to use the Force
00:27:09 --> 00:27:13 in the ways that the Jedi follow. No, I got you.
00:27:13 --> 00:27:15 I got you. And you're correct. He does go through
00:27:15 --> 00:27:18 it and his children go through it. and his wife
00:27:18 --> 00:27:21 goes through it. But also her dad is one of the
00:27:21 --> 00:27:24 funniest characters in Indie U, Booster. I fucking
00:27:24 --> 00:27:28 love Booster Tarek with my whole heart. Fucking
00:27:28 --> 00:27:33 red ass pimped up star. The air adventure, baby.
00:27:33 --> 00:27:36 I would salute to that ship any day. Yeah, he's
00:27:36 --> 00:27:38 a boisterous old pirate. That's all he is. He's
00:27:38 --> 00:27:40 got his big ship to run his smuggling operation
00:27:40 --> 00:27:45 from. And I love the... Yeah, we did. It's okay.
00:27:45 --> 00:27:47 That's what it's for. We're unscripted for a
00:27:47 --> 00:27:50 reason. But I do also like, you know, with Booster,
00:27:50 --> 00:27:53 I do like how much he bent the old Republic over
00:27:53 --> 00:27:57 to rebuild the Star Destroyer after the Thrawn
00:27:57 --> 00:28:01 Crisis. Bill Obelisk wanted him to take him into...
00:28:01 --> 00:28:04 And he's like, this is a one way trip. And he,
00:28:04 --> 00:28:06 and Booster's like, you're, you're putting guns
00:28:06 --> 00:28:07 on this thing before we go. Cause we're going
00:28:07 --> 00:28:10 to protect these people. And he's like, I can't
00:28:10 --> 00:28:11 put guns. It's like, you're putting the guns
00:28:11 --> 00:28:15 on this thing or we don't go. Well, okay. Also
00:28:15 --> 00:28:19 fun fact. Uh, there was one, I forget what episode
00:28:19 --> 00:28:22 we were recording, but I mentioned Garn Bell
00:28:22 --> 00:28:24 Iblis. And when she goes, I don't know who that
00:28:24 --> 00:28:28 is. And I was just aghast. Wow. Okay. Look, man,
00:28:28 --> 00:28:32 I have, I read this. when I was like 10. I can't
00:28:32 --> 00:28:35 always remember the character names and shit.
00:28:35 --> 00:28:40 I'm old -ish, sorta. Not in comparison, but like,
00:28:40 --> 00:28:43 I feel old. Okay, you think I care about Corellians?
00:28:43 --> 00:28:48 You see my profile picture? Whatever. You think
00:28:48 --> 00:28:52 I'm focusing on the Corellians? Yes. No! There's
00:28:52 --> 00:28:55 Corellian Mandalorians. Okay, and? That means
00:28:55 --> 00:28:57 you gotta like Corellians. No, that means I like
00:28:57 --> 00:29:00 the Mandalorians who happen to come from Corellia.
00:29:00 --> 00:29:02 Oh, did you just say Corellia? Yes, I did. That's
00:29:02 --> 00:29:05 all I needed to know. Yep. See, I don't care.
00:29:05 --> 00:29:08 I can't believe you call yourself a Star Wars
00:29:08 --> 00:29:11 fan and don't know who Garm Bel fucking Iblis
00:29:11 --> 00:29:13 is. I can't believe that you still wanna fuck
00:29:13 --> 00:29:16 a hut, but here we is. You know what? I have
00:29:16 --> 00:29:20 I have no rebuttal to this He's got he's got
00:29:20 --> 00:29:24 you in a corner there. It's just so slimy Come
00:29:24 --> 00:29:28 on. I'm just I'm more justified than Anakin and
00:29:28 --> 00:29:31 Jason was I don't know I'm gonna Okay, well,
00:29:32 --> 00:29:33 you're gonna sit there and you're gonna tell
00:29:33 --> 00:29:36 me that the slaughter of innocent children is
00:29:36 --> 00:29:39 more Justifiable than fucking a slimy hut. You're
00:29:39 --> 00:29:41 gonna sit there and say that both of you. Yeah
00:29:41 --> 00:29:44 Yeah, I'll say that. I might. I'll go on. I'll
00:29:44 --> 00:29:46 just I'll go on record now. Yeah, I'll say that.
00:29:46 --> 00:29:49 Well, I would rather kill kill innocent children
00:29:49 --> 00:29:52 over just have a great sexual experience. You
00:29:52 --> 00:29:55 heard it here, folks. Well, I'm not. Fuck them
00:29:55 --> 00:29:58 kids. I'm not 100 percent sure about your your
00:29:58 --> 00:30:00 100 percent. I need I need I kind of need to
00:30:00 --> 00:30:02 see the work on the math of the 100 percent there.
00:30:02 --> 00:30:05 But I can I can give you the math. I mean, that's
00:30:05 --> 00:30:10 OK. 69 plus 69. I think you should probably probably
00:30:10 --> 00:30:11 look into that at home. schooling stuff Bill
00:30:11 --> 00:30:17 was just talking about. You know, to go back
00:30:17 --> 00:30:21 to our Jason Anakin thing. Yeah, back to what
00:30:21 --> 00:30:24 we were originally talking about. Yeah. So, you
00:30:24 --> 00:30:27 know, we were talking about how Anakin had that
00:30:27 --> 00:30:30 like redemption moment where he kills Palpatine
00:30:30 --> 00:30:32 and like, okay, he brings bounce to the force.
00:30:32 --> 00:30:37 I honestly I liked Jason's like single paragraph
00:30:37 --> 00:30:42 of redemption more than I like Vaders. redemption
00:30:42 --> 00:30:45 arc the entire thing because like we were saying
00:30:45 --> 00:30:49 i never felt like anakin's fall was truly justifiable
00:30:49 --> 00:30:52 like he just does bad shit out of the blue and
00:30:52 --> 00:30:54 we get like more context in the clone wars but
00:30:54 --> 00:30:57 i mean it it really was just a flip of the switch
00:30:57 --> 00:31:01 let's murder some children to save my wife here's
00:31:01 --> 00:31:03 the problem with that because i know exactly
00:31:03 --> 00:31:06 where the problem with anakin and revenge of
00:31:06 --> 00:31:09 the sith comes from if you read the not yet the
00:31:09 --> 00:31:11 the novelization of it it's got a bunch of scenes
00:31:11 --> 00:31:14 in it that were either cut or never filmed. They
00:31:14 --> 00:31:16 were in the script, but they were never filmed.
00:31:16 --> 00:31:20 That gets into the fall of Anakin more than what
00:31:20 --> 00:31:23 you see in, in the film. But once you read the
00:31:23 --> 00:31:25 book and then you watch the film, I'm not trying
00:31:25 --> 00:31:28 to say this is like 2001, a space Odyssey where
00:31:28 --> 00:31:30 you can't understand why the monkeys are trying
00:31:30 --> 00:31:31 to kill each other. And then suddenly we're in
00:31:31 --> 00:31:35 space, but the, the, the book has more context
00:31:35 --> 00:31:40 and gets more into stuff around Anakin's fall.
00:31:40 --> 00:31:42 that they don't do in the film. Like there's
00:31:42 --> 00:31:46 more of the mindset of what is going through.
00:31:47 --> 00:31:50 And part of this is the book. The book was written
00:31:50 --> 00:31:53 off of the script, but part of it was at the
00:31:53 --> 00:31:56 time, Hayden wasn't that... good of an actor
00:31:56 --> 00:31:59 to be able to pull off a lot of what he was doing
00:31:59 --> 00:32:00 because the only way you can see it is through
00:32:00 --> 00:32:03 his emotion and his actions. Wait, wait, wait,
00:32:03 --> 00:32:06 pause, pause, pause, pause. No, no, no, no, no.
00:32:06 --> 00:32:08 You can't, you can't shit on Horan and then come
00:32:08 --> 00:32:12 for my boy Hayden next. No, no, in episode three,
00:32:12 --> 00:32:15 I loved the fact that he talked the way he did
00:32:15 --> 00:32:18 towards the end of the movie because he is mirroring
00:32:18 --> 00:32:22 Vader's cadence in a human voice. I'm talking
00:32:22 --> 00:32:25 about what led the part of the story. That leads
00:32:25 --> 00:32:29 up to him falling and you know him the decision
00:32:29 --> 00:32:32 that you know He's gonna he's going to you know
00:32:32 --> 00:32:34 cut Mace Windu's arm off to keep him from killing
00:32:34 --> 00:32:38 Palpatine You see that you see the decision point,
00:32:38 --> 00:32:41 but there's more turmoil in him. Even at that
00:32:41 --> 00:32:43 point, he does it, but he does it basically at
00:32:43 --> 00:32:46 a reflex. He doesn't do it because he knows he
00:32:46 --> 00:32:48 needs to keep Palpatine alive. And the only way
00:32:48 --> 00:32:51 he can do that is cutting his arm off, but there's,
00:32:51 --> 00:32:52 there's still the turmoil. He's like, he knows
00:32:52 --> 00:32:54 this is a point of no return. And if he takes
00:32:54 --> 00:32:57 this step. It's just, it's stuff that it's, it's
00:32:57 --> 00:32:59 like, if it, if it would have been filmed and
00:32:59 --> 00:33:00 if it would have been in the movie, it would
00:33:00 --> 00:33:02 have been better. That, that was also where you
00:33:02 --> 00:33:05 got the, the deleted scene that Luminaria gets
00:33:05 --> 00:33:08 killed on, on Grievous's ship. That was part
00:33:08 --> 00:33:09 of that one script. And that, and that, that,
00:33:09 --> 00:33:11 I think, I think it actually was filmed, but
00:33:11 --> 00:33:12 they cut it cause they didn't want to actually
00:33:12 --> 00:33:15 have show her being killed on screen. So that
00:33:15 --> 00:33:17 that's one of the things that kind of led to
00:33:18 --> 00:33:20 Confusions like wait Luminara is alive. I thought
00:33:20 --> 00:33:22 she was killed, you know, with, with the, with
00:33:22 --> 00:33:23 the novelization. There's just something that
00:33:23 --> 00:33:25 happened. You heard that just happens off screen
00:33:25 --> 00:33:27 because she was killed in the book and they just
00:33:27 --> 00:33:29 didn't film it. But no, the, the book, the book
00:33:29 --> 00:33:34 of Sith, I think fills in a lot of the, uh, a
00:33:34 --> 00:33:36 lot of the blanks with Anakin. Now I'll say this.
00:33:36 --> 00:33:39 I think Clone Wars, it took the story that they
00:33:39 --> 00:33:42 couldn't tell in the films and at least got to
00:33:42 --> 00:33:45 tell it to a certain degree. Yeah. The thing
00:33:45 --> 00:33:49 I loved about. Jason's end I mean he had to die
00:33:49 --> 00:33:52 right like Jason needed to go that and we all
00:33:52 --> 00:33:54 knew it was coming so it wasn't you know anything
00:33:54 --> 00:33:58 crazy, but this whole time he's been working
00:33:58 --> 00:34:03 towards a situation where his daughter isn't
00:34:03 --> 00:34:06 vilified right he wants to build a galaxy maybe
00:34:06 --> 00:34:09 not a better galaxy because I mean shit look
00:34:09 --> 00:34:11 at all what he did it's a galaxy he's trying
00:34:11 --> 00:34:14 to build it where his daughter is safe and can
00:34:14 --> 00:34:16 grow and become, you know, the person that she
00:34:16 --> 00:34:19 wants to be versus, like, what the Force told
00:34:19 --> 00:34:22 him, quote -unquote, that she was going to be.
00:34:22 --> 00:34:25 And so at the very end, when Jaina's right about
00:34:25 --> 00:34:28 to kill him, and he could save himself, like,
00:34:28 --> 00:34:32 he totally has the capability to bring his lightsaber
00:34:32 --> 00:34:35 up and block it, right? But he takes that, like,
00:34:35 --> 00:34:40 half second to warn Tenelka that the nanovirus
00:34:40 --> 00:34:44 is coming to kill her. And and his daughter he
00:34:44 --> 00:34:46 takes that half second to warn them knowing that
00:34:46 --> 00:34:49 he's gonna die because this whole time everything
00:34:49 --> 00:34:53 has been about his daughter and i love that so
00:34:53 --> 00:34:56 much more and because the journey was so much
00:34:56 --> 00:34:59 longer and he went to all these places to learn
00:34:59 --> 00:35:02 about the force to grow all that stuff i felt
00:35:02 --> 00:35:05 it was much more like it flow better with his
00:35:05 --> 00:35:09 whole story. That at the very end, you know,
00:35:09 --> 00:35:13 he sacrifices himself to save his daughter versus
00:35:13 --> 00:35:16 Vader who killed his wife, almost killed his
00:35:16 --> 00:35:19 son, you know, killed half the galaxy, he was
00:35:19 --> 00:35:22 on the Death Star when it blew up Alderaan, which
00:35:22 --> 00:35:25 is, you know. where his daughter was from mostly
00:35:25 --> 00:35:28 and okay yeah at the very end he picks up the
00:35:28 --> 00:35:30 big bad dude that's been torturing him for 20
00:35:30 --> 00:35:33 years and throws him into it you know in a reactor
00:35:33 --> 00:35:35 well that's cool but also like he could have
00:35:35 --> 00:35:37 just done that because he was mad right like
00:35:37 --> 00:35:39 it's been 20 years of torture and he found finally
00:35:39 --> 00:35:41 has an opportunity to just off the dude and so
00:35:41 --> 00:35:43 he takes it And then he's like, okay, you know,
00:35:44 --> 00:35:46 tell your sister, blah, whatever, right? That
00:35:46 --> 00:35:49 whole thing, like, if he fell to the dark side
00:35:49 --> 00:35:52 because he wanted to save Padme, he shouldn't
00:35:52 --> 00:35:55 have done any of that shit. Whereas Jason, he
00:35:55 --> 00:35:57 never, he never fought, you know, Tendulka. He
00:35:57 --> 00:36:00 didn't try to kill Tendulka. He didn't force
00:36:00 --> 00:36:03 choke her out. Like, he cared about them. He
00:36:03 --> 00:36:05 had compassion. Don't don't King Shay mannequin.
00:36:05 --> 00:36:08 I'm not kink shaming Anakin. I never said it
00:36:08 --> 00:36:10 was a bad thing. I'm just saying like - Yeah,
00:36:10 --> 00:36:12 in fact he calls Anakin a pocket pussy more often
00:36:12 --> 00:36:15 than not. Yeah, that is true. I do. But like,
00:36:15 --> 00:36:18 Jason, I felt like they did - they did his arc
00:36:18 --> 00:36:21 better than they did Vader's. Even if you like
00:36:21 --> 00:36:24 - even with the novelization, I - I feel like
00:36:24 --> 00:36:28 he had a - a better - a better ending, um, a
00:36:28 --> 00:36:30 more satisfying ending for the character than
00:36:30 --> 00:36:33 - than Vader ever did. Well yeah because like
00:36:33 --> 00:36:36 jason jason like i said jason got tortured went
00:36:36 --> 00:36:39 on a pilgrimage came back and did all that shit
00:36:39 --> 00:36:42 where is like in anakin story honestly like there
00:36:42 --> 00:36:44 was a little bit of build up but it was honestly
00:36:44 --> 00:36:47 like and the next day he was vader is just really
00:36:47 --> 00:36:51 quick yeah we get we get like fifty years. of
00:36:51 --> 00:36:54 books and and everything you know with Jason
00:36:54 --> 00:36:57 him growing him developing it like everything
00:36:57 --> 00:37:00 and Vader was a pocket pussy and then you know
00:37:00 --> 00:37:03 he was the bad guy I like I liked Jason's and
00:37:03 --> 00:37:05 I love that Jaina trained with the Mandalorians
00:37:05 --> 00:37:08 you know that was already a selling point for
00:37:08 --> 00:37:11 me yeah of course I did obviously you know and
00:37:11 --> 00:37:15 we got we got Barden and we got our CAD back
00:37:15 --> 00:37:18 like That whole arc was so much more satisfying
00:37:18 --> 00:37:20 and enjoyable to me than going back and trying
00:37:20 --> 00:37:23 to slog through the Revenge of Sith novelization,
00:37:23 --> 00:37:26 for instance. That's right. For me, when I read
00:37:26 --> 00:37:29 the book and then I saw everything that it filled
00:37:29 --> 00:37:33 in, it pissed me off that this wasn't in the
00:37:33 --> 00:37:35 story on the screen, because all of this would
00:37:35 --> 00:37:39 have made it work so much better as just a story.
00:37:39 --> 00:37:42 It was already like one of the... Was it the
00:37:42 --> 00:37:44 longest Star Wars movie at that time? I don't,
00:37:44 --> 00:37:46 I remember, I remember what the, the, the run,
00:37:46 --> 00:37:49 the runtime of, uh, I think it was. Yeah. Can
00:37:49 --> 00:37:54 we get a runtime on episode three? He's ready.
00:37:54 --> 00:37:57 Episode three with fun time is two hours, 20
00:37:57 --> 00:38:01 minutes. Adding in another 10 or 15 minutes of,
00:38:01 --> 00:38:04 of, of story that just fills in a little bit
00:38:04 --> 00:38:07 more of the, of, of the background that, that
00:38:07 --> 00:38:10 leads, that leads up to it. It gets, it gets
00:38:10 --> 00:38:13 into the desperation that the Anakin started
00:38:13 --> 00:38:16 to feel about trying to be able to save Padme.
00:38:16 --> 00:38:18 Yeah. Cause it really hones in on the fact that
00:38:18 --> 00:38:21 like that dude was getting no sleep. Like none,
00:38:21 --> 00:38:23 like, like you knew he had that one sleepless
00:38:23 --> 00:38:25 night and he kind of mentions it in the movies,
00:38:26 --> 00:38:29 but like the book really like, like he was just
00:38:29 --> 00:38:31 not sleeping. Yeah. And you know, he, he was
00:38:31 --> 00:38:34 a child soldier. Alternative things that may
00:38:34 --> 00:38:37 not necessarily seem, you know, you know, we're
00:38:37 --> 00:38:38 going to, we're going to drop three battalions
00:38:38 --> 00:38:41 of clones on a planet and, you know, maybe half
00:38:41 --> 00:38:43 of one's coming out of it. You know, that, that,
00:38:43 --> 00:38:46 that tends to, to, to wear on you after a while.
00:38:46 --> 00:38:48 And then, you know, you're not, you're not sleeping
00:38:48 --> 00:38:49 and you got some dude whispering in your ear.
00:38:50 --> 00:38:51 It's like, Hey, all your, all your fears you
00:38:51 --> 00:38:54 have about your wife. I got, I got you back homie.
00:38:54 --> 00:38:56 And then, you know, they go to Cirque du Soleil
00:38:56 --> 00:38:58 for some reason. For me, that, that was, that
00:38:58 --> 00:39:04 was as much out of place. as the casino in last
00:39:04 --> 00:39:07 year i was okay to blight yeah i'll but you know
00:39:07 --> 00:39:11 what does no l and it's by. Oh well can't tell
00:39:11 --> 00:39:14 by i'm sorry but i like the search the sole a
00:39:14 --> 00:39:17 scene because we get the plague is the wise quote
00:39:17 --> 00:39:19 quote quote god you just got me fucking up words
00:39:19 --> 00:39:25 now when she fuck you. Will you problem caused
00:39:25 --> 00:39:29 by you. But you could have told that same story
00:39:29 --> 00:39:31 on the bridge of a star destroyer. You could
00:39:31 --> 00:39:34 have told that in his office. They could have
00:39:34 --> 00:39:37 been sitting down drinking whiskey. They literally
00:39:37 --> 00:39:39 could have been anywhere else besides watching,
00:39:39 --> 00:39:42 you know, Cirque du Soleil in a bubble. I think
00:39:42 --> 00:39:45 that it placed a Palpatine's hand because he's
00:39:45 --> 00:39:47 the Supreme Chancellor. You know, if he's out
00:39:47 --> 00:39:50 in an event like that, he's being watched. His
00:39:50 --> 00:39:52 people or people who pay attention to him are
00:39:52 --> 00:39:55 seeing like, hey, this one person who is the
00:39:55 --> 00:39:58 hero of the fucking Clone Wars is with me in
00:39:58 --> 00:40:00 public at an event because we're close like that.
00:40:01 --> 00:40:02 I think that I think that it works in Palpatine's
00:40:02 --> 00:40:05 favor. Honestly, I think that it's a it's a masterful
00:40:05 --> 00:40:09 play by him. OK, I mean, yeah, the the the extra
00:40:09 --> 00:40:11 the extravagance of it would would fit with the
00:40:11 --> 00:40:16 the the the office and all that. Yeah, I. I can
00:40:16 --> 00:40:19 see that point. For me, it was so jarring of
00:40:19 --> 00:40:22 it. It's like, okay, that's out of left field.
00:40:22 --> 00:40:25 I bet you Palpatine, because he's a xenophobe.
00:40:25 --> 00:40:27 I bet you he's just sitting there thinking about
00:40:27 --> 00:40:30 all the ways he could murder all those exotic
00:40:30 --> 00:40:32 dancers and the bubbles. He's like, man, if I
00:40:32 --> 00:40:35 just one force lightning, it's going to arc between
00:40:35 --> 00:40:38 all those bubbles. I could just kill them all
00:40:38 --> 00:40:40 right now. He's probably just there having a
00:40:40 --> 00:40:43 little hate boner in his brain. And then Anakin
00:40:43 --> 00:40:45 shows up and he's like, you know what? I'm going
00:40:45 --> 00:40:47 to try and get this kid in my, in my corner.
00:40:47 --> 00:40:49 Right. I don't think Disney has really just brought
00:40:49 --> 00:40:53 over as, as a whole from, I think, I think Disney
00:40:53 --> 00:40:56 dropped that, that whole aspect of, of the empire.
00:40:56 --> 00:40:59 Well, I will say that like Andor did a good job
00:40:59 --> 00:41:01 at maybe not showing the, like the, like the
00:41:01 --> 00:41:04 xenophobia and the racism, but like definitely
00:41:04 --> 00:41:08 the misogyny, um, in the story of Deidre in Andor,
00:41:08 --> 00:41:11 because she's a woman trying to climb the, you
00:41:11 --> 00:41:13 know, the Imperial bureaucracy and she's got
00:41:13 --> 00:41:16 her. basically like hey you should I think one
00:41:16 --> 00:41:18 guy says a quote like you gotta stabilize the
00:41:18 --> 00:41:20 ladder before you try to climb it or something
00:41:20 --> 00:41:22 so I don't think it's out of the picture yet
00:41:22 --> 00:41:24 but you're right they definitely haven't like
00:41:24 --> 00:41:28 honed in on it as much as it was in legends yeah
00:41:28 --> 00:41:30 was it was it the bad batch where they they they
00:41:30 --> 00:41:32 had the the one where the Empire went back there
00:41:32 --> 00:41:34 to start taking wikis of slaves was that in the
00:41:34 --> 00:41:38 bad batch yeah it was yeah so I mean you have
00:41:38 --> 00:41:41 that but it's like you know they're It's not
00:41:41 --> 00:41:43 really essential to the story anymore. Well,
00:41:43 --> 00:41:46 thank you guys for being here. You know, we've
00:41:46 --> 00:41:49 had our guest Bill here before and he's back
00:41:49 --> 00:41:52 and we're gonna get him back again. So look forward
00:41:52 --> 00:41:55 to having Bill here again. We're also gonna have
00:41:55 --> 00:41:57 some more guests here the rest of the season,
00:41:57 --> 00:41:59 so stay tuned for that. Thank you guys for tuning
00:41:59 --> 00:42:02 in. Make sure to like, subscribe, hit that bell,
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00:42:23 --> 00:42:26 you guys next time. Nice being on. Talk to you
00:42:26 --> 00:42:28 later. May the force be with you, everyone. Thank
00:42:28 --> 00:42:29 you for being here.